Telemarketer Joe Delfgauw owns up to the truth - he doesn't think it is his responsibility to weed out fraudulent opt ins

This is another article looking at testimony telemarketer Joe Delfgauw gave where he explains how telemarketing works.

Click here for the article on the role statistics play in deciding if an individual opt in is fraudulent or not.

Click here for the article on how most unwanted telemarketing calls could be stopped for a single penny.

This article covers what sense of responsibility Joe Delfgauw feels in not telemarketing fraudulent opt ins, versus his feeling that the victims of unwanted telemarketing have the responsibility to make it stop. This is taken from deposition testimony between Mr. Delfgauw and my law clerk Nathen Barton.

Q. And you had previously been asked, "What keeps someone from opting in their neighbor on your websites?" Your answer was, "Because the neighbor usually responds 'stop' or 'help.'" Does that sounds like an answer you would have given?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And how do you know what usually happens?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Well, so I asked, "What keeps someone from opting in their neighbor on your websites." And you said, "Because the neighbor usually responds 'stop' or 'help.'" So I'm just asking you how do you know what usually happens?

A. Because if they don't want the text messages, they reply "stop."

Q. After the first one?

A. Could be whenever. Sometimes. Sometimes after the first one. Again, if it's right away and someone is faking information, it usually happens fast.

Q. Have you done any work to understand that when people who never wanted your -- your text messages, how long it takes them to finally reply "stop"?

A. Statistics are that 90 percent of people open up a text message within 10 minutes. So is your question -- if -- there is no right or wrong answer to that, that someone could be at work and not get their text messages for five hours. You don't know that information. You just go by the law of large numbers.

Q. No, I'm asking you if you hired a company or a scientist to study what usually happens when people don't want your text messages?

A. No, because most people that don't want text messages reply "stop."

Q. And you're just saying that based on your gut?

A. We had 105,000 opt-outs the last week.

Q. So, here, let's put it a different way.

A. It's your lawsuits, by the way.

Q. For the people who never wanted your text messages, on average, how many text messages do they get before they reply "stop"?

A. No idea.

Q. Okay. So you don't know if people reply "stop" after the first one or the tenth one?

A. No idea.

Q. Okay.

A. I mean, we know when they reply "stop." We don't know what number they reply on. Never really cared. And I need to make sure that I explain this correctly so you understand. Someone wants to go to school and we send them a text message in April, May, June. By July they might say Hey, you know what? This actually looks kind of cool. Maybe I'll qualify for the grants now that I'm 26 years old, I just had a birthday. So they might go to school in September and the reply "stop" in September. So it could be the first, 10th, 100th, doesn't matter.

Q. Why should a person who didn't ask for your calls have to do anything?

A. Is that a trick question?

Q. No.

A. How do we know they didn't ask for the calls?

Q. Well, you said that there's a few people, transposed numbers, wrong numbers, data breach, I think you've admitted that there's at least one person over the years who didn't want your calls and has gotten into your system. Why should that person have to do anything to stop your calls?

A. I almost -- that -- that question is so silly, I don't even now how to answer it. We don't know that they didn't opt in or didn't want the calls until they reply "stop." [The only reason Delfgauw doesn't know is because he doesn't want to spend the penny to weed out fraudulent opt ins with 2 factor authentication / double opts ins] Why should they have to do something? Because someone else stole their information and fraudulently did something with it. We don't know that. How are we supposed to know that? [The only reason Delfgauw doesn't know is because he doesn't want to spend the penny to weed out fraudulent opt ins with 2 factor authentication / double opts ins]

Q. Okay. So because you don't know that the information was stolen, it's kind of not your responsibility?

A. No, because most people reply "stop." And why should they have to? I don't know. Why do you have to get up and go to work every day? I mean, you're asking weird questions like that. Like, you can't stop. You can't stop if someone fakely [sic] puts someone's information and they say why should they have to do that? They shouldn't. They should be able to file charges on that son of a bitch. But they don't. It's not my fault. Someone else entered that information. We went through the checks. It's not our fault either. [The only reason Delfgauw doesn't know is because he doesn't want to spend the penny to weed out fraudulent opt ins with 2 factor authentication / double opts ins] We -- they all just reply "stop." It's not hard. [This is Joe Delfgauw's truth - he depends on the victims of illegal telemarketing to make him stop]

Q. But why should they have to do that versus you spend a penny?

A. They'd still get the text message. They'd still get that first text message, so why should they have to respond to that first text message if you're going to say it like that? Like, you're not making any sense. You're trying to trip up and it's not working. You're not -- if we sent everybody a text message, that would be the text message, the first text message they got. It doesn't make any sense. You're not -- the double opt-in wouldn't change anything because why should they have to actually respond to the first text? Because that's the same question.

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Q. So if someone doesn't reply to a double opt-in, they don't have to get any more calls or texts, right?

A. Theoretically, if someone doesn't reply to another opt-in, they shouldn't get a text or call at all, theoretically. [Joe Delfgauw has to admit that if a consumer doesn't reply to the double opt in text message, the calls and text messages stop]

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Q. So wouldn't that [one verification text] be better than them getting potentially hundreds of calls or texts?

A. No. [Joe Delfgauw doesn't think it is better to get one unwanted text instead of hundreds, but isn't that because Joe gets paid to deliver the hundreds of unwanted calls or texts?]

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Q. It's not better that they only get one instead of 100?

A. In law of large numbers, Mr. Barton, 99.9999 percent of the people are good and they just reply "stop." [In Joe's mind the good people are the ones who make him money]

Q. So you're -- you depend on people replying "stop"?

A. Everybody replies -- I mean, requires people to reply "stop."

Q. Who is "everybody"?

A. Any person I've ever -- I'm very well-connected in the text messaging industry and I never heard of it. And I go to the text messaging seminars, CXMI, Infobip. I just got back from there. RCS is coming out. There's all kinds of stuff that's happening. I go by the industry standards and our reputation in the industry is fantastic because we very rarely get lawsuits and they are always from scammers.

Q. And you made the decision not to spend a penny?

A. I made the decision, yes.

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Q. Why don't you do double opt-ins that stop calls and text messages until someone replies with "yes"?

A. Because most of country is honest. Most of the country fills it out with the intention of getting a call, and so it's a business decision to say -- and listen to my words very carefully --

A: What?

MS. VAN DUSEN: Be calm.

A: Oh, sorry. Listen to my words very carefully and don't try to twist it. Most people that want the calls fill out the information. Most people that fill out spam bots, which I don't even think they can, or a person in India, to use your words, they would get caught very quickly. So I don't know -- and it is impossible that one of the -- if they filled out and 120 people said no thanks, is it possible that 80, out of the 80, some person didn't want to get a call, gets another call. Yeah, it's possible. It's possible.

Q. And your business model relies on people replying "stop" or -- or saying "do not call me, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So in your business model, if people don't say "stop calling me," then your business model doesn't work?

A. No, it works fine. What are you saying? Work for what?

Q. Well, if people don't tell you to stop calling, you have no other way to know if they ask for the calls?

A. Absolutely. You're right.

Q. Because you don't do the double opt-in?

A. We don't need to do the double opt-in for calls.

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Q. Judge Creatura said that people getting unwanted calls have no duty to say "stop" or opt out

A. Disagree. I mean, they might not have any legal duty, but, I mean, most people just reply "stop."

Joe Delfgauw explained his thought process on why puts the burden of stopping unwanted phones on his victims. He says that because he is unwilling to spend the penny on two factor authentication / double opt in to know that he is illegally telemarketing the victim, it is the victim's responsibility to tell Joe Delfgauw that the calls are unwanted.

Just like until you tell a burglar to get out of your house and stop taking your television, how could he have know he didn't have permission? Because the burglar didn't ask it is then the television owner's responsibility to inform the burglar.

Got a Case Like This?

If you’ve had similar problems with telemarketers, debt collectors, or bankruptcy-related harassment, we might feature your story in a future blog post. Email your situation or legal filing to peter@nwdebtresolution.com or nathen@nwdebtresolution.com.

Are telemarketers bothering you in Washington, Oregon, or Montana?

I handle TCPA lawsuits in Washington State and Oregon, and may be able to help.

📞 Call: 206-800-6000 / 971-800-6000

📧 Email: peter@nwdebtresolution.com

Note: The opinions in this blog are mine (Peter Schneider) and do not count as legal advice. If you're thinking of suing over illegal robocalls or Do Not Call list violations, contact me for a legal consultation.

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